Breaking into Animation: From Storyboards to Supervising Director // Jake Hollander #10241

Jake Hollander joins us to discuss his incredible journey through the world of animation as a Supervising Director, Writer, and Creator. From working on fan-favorite series like Krapopolis and Duncanville to creating original IPs, Jake shares how his love of storytelling—shaped by fantasy and sci-fi classics like those of Isaac Asimov and J.R.R. Tolkien—informs his creative process. Tune in to hear how Jake’s passion for mythology, history, and collaboration fuels his success in the entertainment industry!

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Transcript

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Hey, my name is Jake Hollander. I'm a director at Bentobox and it's my pleasure to be speaking on the Breaking the Biz podcast with the Yes I Can crew.[AI Narrator] - Stay tuned for today's episode of Breaking the Biz, an informative podcast where we dive into the world of entertainment by interviewing seasoned professionals who have made their mark in the industry. Gain invaluable insights as they share their personal journeys, offering advice on navigating the dynamic landscape of the entertainment industry. Whether you're an aspiring actor, musician, filmmaker, author, animator, or any creative soul, tune in for expert career guidance, insider tips and firsthand accounts on breaking into the entertainment industry. Get ready to unlock the secrets behind successful careers and fuel your own passion for the limelight. Please remember to like this video and to subscribe to our channels for for more great conversations.[Host] - Greetings from Breaking the Biz brought to you by Yes I Can Unity Through Music and Education. I'm William Felber, your navigator through the intriguing universe of the entertainment industry as revealed by the visionaries and creators who bring it to life. Stay tuned as we delve into diverse insights from the forefront of entertainment. Hearing from pioneers, creators and agents of change. Prepare for a journey filled with tales of innovation, resilience and the undying quest for artistic brilliance.[Moderator] - Welcome everyone to Breaking the Biz. We have got a great guest. We have Jack Hollander, who is a director at Bentobox. He is a supervising director, episodic director, writer and creator for animation in Los Angeles. Favorite hobby besides telling stories is reading them. Anything involving fantasy, sci, fi, mythology or history, you can sign them up. Authors like Isaac Asimov and JRR... how do I always say this last name? I always... Tolkien... have been imaginative staples in his life since as long as he can remember. I love Lord of the Rings. I just can't give the. The author, you know, the respect that. That they deserve. I want to thank you, Jake, for making time for us tonight. I know obviously any creative in this business is always busy, so taking time away from the creat. Pass along your information. We appreciate it. So I want to start with when you were a young lad, little kid. What was the dream job for you? Backpacking. I wanted to be a trailblazer for Knowles. That. When. When you were. That was it. That was it. Like I went on a trip when I was a teenager because my, like I was lucky enough to. To have my parents find this cool outdoor program and I loved it and I wanted to do it. That's it. Okay, fair enough. Were you a Boy Scout? No, no, not a Boy Scout. Just someone who loves nature. And I want to go travel. Yeah, I mean, you know, you mentioned Lord of the Rings. Like, they do a lot of walking. I liked. I like that part, too. So obviously, you must be a healthy one, you know, doing the hiking. All right, so let's talk about when you were in high school. What were you studying and what, you know, in high school level, when you were graduating, what did you go to study? You're asking the hard questions first. I. I wasn't good in school at all. I. I had a lot of problems in high school with. With getting good grades and studying. I, you know, I struggled with a lot of learning disabilities that made standardized testing just very difficult for me. So I never. Never did. Did good in high school. Not at all. And I wasn't a huge fan of school because of that. And that probably is one of the bigger reasons why I wanted to go backpacking, trailblazing, and not go down any kind of academic route. Okay. To be honest, no, that's absolutely fine. You know, and I'm glad you brought that up. Right. Because not everyone fits in a box, and standardized testing is most definitely putting people in a box and giving them a number. So I. I can totally get that. And if indeed you're, you know, you struggle. Did you like writing? You know, you're obviously very creative. Any writing in high school? Yeah, I did. I made a lot of funny, random comics that my friends and I would laugh at, but I never really thought of it as, like, oh, I'm gonna. I'm gonna do this creative career in comics. I was just to laugh with my friends here and there. And the one thing I did really enjoy in high school was I played Magic the Gathering and read a lot. And I would, like, copy the magic cards into a book and then make up a story about them. I. I know there's, like, lore for Magic the Gathering, but I didn't know that when I was in high school. I didn't read about it, but I would enjoy doing that kind of stuff. So there was an interest to just follow a fantasy. So, okay, talk me through your love of mythology. Where did you get exposed to that? I mean, where do you even start with that one? Mythology. It's vast. It's the tales of humanity. It's the first kind of stories we told around the fireplace. They're the most raw and chaotic stories, and they predominantly focus on messaging that affect our everyday lives with a fantastical added to it. So the appeal of these mythical Beings clashing and creating their histories and how their histories affect man and women and humanity as a whole. It's pretty fascinating concept to, to like to see lightning and go, you know what? I don't know what the hell that is. It's probably a God doing it. So just, those stories are really, it's like raw creativity, in my opinion. I love that. Is there one mythology story that sticks out, you know, that you just absolutely love? There's a lot of really cool mythology stories that I like. Well, I'm like trying to, you know, I read through some of these questions, but you're like going off here. You're asking me these, these deep thought questions. To be honest, my favorite mythology is Lord of the Rings. I, I do consider it a mythology, like a modern mythology that's inspired by the mythos that came before it. Tolkien was very, very into mythology. But I think one of my, I think one of my personal favorite mythological stories is the one where Thor drinks from a cup. It's like the trial. Like, it's like that, you know, when, when he's getting messed with and he drinks from that cup and like drains the ocean. Like, you find out that, that he went through all these different random trials at a party and it turns out he almost destroyed them doing it. So I thought that was pretty fun. I like biblical wise, I like Samson. It's a fun one. And there's, I do like a lot of Greek mythologies and I like how nuanced they are. Like, I like the, I like Medusa and the Gorgons in general. There's something weird about the pettiness of the gods that create really interesting narratives that are very human. That's like, like, like fantastical in a way. But yeah, I can, I can probably go on more than you'd want because as I'm thinking about these questions, I keep thinking of more like, no worries. I do love Medusa. I love how she takes the power back from, from the males little staring at her. No, we're going to come to questions at the very end, so hang on. I know, I know where you were excited there. Let's talk about first job. What was the first job for you? Creative job or my first job? First job. And then we'll get into creative job. Okay, cool. Yeah, Wendy's. Okay. We're doing Wendy's. And I was a teenager and if you guys can see that tank over there, there's a turtle in it. And that's what I bought with my first picture. There it is. She's there a little Wendy's? Little biggie size little turtle? Talk me through the first creative entertainment focus job. So the first, like, I'll. I consider the first creative job as my first union job for me because that was the. That signified the first, like, job I worked on for a show. It was at Rough Draft. It was a show called Tarantula. It was supposed to be on a TBS block. It's one of my favorite shows that I've ever worked on. And I was a storyboard artist. So I was fortunate enough to get hired as a storyboard artist for my first job. So it was a really great experience. So being a storyboard artist, obviously dictating the story through the storyboard. But are you an amazing artist as well? Well, amazing is very subjective. I think for storyboarding. I think my fundamentals are at a really, like, great place for me to convey everything I'm imagining onto the page. So, like, my metric for what is good is how clear and concise my drawings are when others are looking at them to understand what I'm trying to do. So perspective, composition, anatomy, proportion. Those are the metrics I define good as. And if all of those things are working, then that's good. I love it. Yeah. By that metric. Yeah. I think my boards are very clear. Did you study anything as far as art goes? In college I had a few intro animation classes for my film and video path. Because when I went to college, since I wasn't good at anything else, I jumped into art as the only possible way my parents and I decided that I can pursue an education. So. So I went through the only. The only schools I would accept me are ones that you can basically like, pay to go to. Because I couldn't get in anything else because I graduated high school with a very low gpa and I think. I don't think I did that. I think I did like basic on my SATs or whatever. So I was behind on a lot of things like writing and all that math and all that fun stuff. Still am behind on math, but for. For school I just had an intro to animation class. Didn't have any figure drawing classes. Had like a, like a drawing one class. But mostly what I did was 3D. It's pretty boring. I just did 3D modeling. No, I think 3D. 3D modeling is really some amazing stuff because I'm a. A stick figure type of person. Like, I have no talent whatsoever. So when you break down, you know, the anatomy and all of you know that stuff, like, I can't do that. So I'm curious. The Cool thing about 3D, though, is that you can use a lot of templates and have an understanding of the anatomy, but 3D. 3D does allow you to, like, import a base model and work off of it. So, like, with drawing, just, like, picking up a pencil and doing it, anatomy and composition, and, like, all that stuff comes into Play. But with 3D, it is a little. I feel like it was a little more forgiving if you can, like, use a base model. But at the same time, you do sometimes have to build things, and then you have to, like, worry about the topology. So there is, like, some 3D understanding of how you put things together. So, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of. A lot of facets to it. But. So you talk. You talked about your first job, obviously, with being in a union and being on a full show. Did you have any internships before that? Yeah, I did. I. Junior year of college, I applied to Cartoon Network, and this was like, 2009. And that's actually what inspired me to get into animation. Before that, I really didn't, like. I really didn't understand animation or know the industry. But when I. When I interned for Cartoon Network, it was on a show called Generator Rex. I met a PA there. His name is Matthew Long, and he's one of the most talented artists I know. And he was able to, like, hold my hand through the process of animation, how to get better, how to. How to. How to board something I didn't even know was a job. So he was a big turning point in my. In my life and career goals. Because once I understood that, I was like, holy shit, this could be the coolest thing ever. Right? And then, you know, then I went back to college and had to finish. It was like, it's a lot. And then I kind of, like, took a little break from art before. I just moved to California to live on a couch with a friend I met 2011 on a program that. I met him in Israel, like a birthright program. So. But yeah, it's good times. Okay. I love it. So from there, you do Cartoon Network. You meet someone who kind of mentors you. You're exposed to different kinds of jobs that you. You had really didn't know about. I mean, storyboard artists at that time, that was brand new to you. Yeah, no, I didn't. I didn't know it was a thing. Okay. Love it. So after you're done with your internship, do you take on any other internships or how do you get. How do you get that first job with a union. So like, fast forward to after I move out to la, sleep on a couch. And first off, I had to identify where I needed to build a portfolio. So I had to learn everything. After college, basically I had to learn how to draw better, I had to learn how to board, I had to study it. I spent all my time on YouTube, like, looking at art tutorials. The. The major one that I looked at was Feng Zoo Design school. It's a YouTube channel from, from like a amazing concept design artist who, who had a school in Singapore. And it's called Feng Zoo Design School. And he has like YouTube channels where he briefly covers some basics and how to build portfolios and all that fun stuff. So I basically lived on that YouTube channel and just practiced every single day. Anatomy, perspective, composition, like just soaked in everything I can possibly learn from him and eventually started to bring boarding into it because it's very hard to get good at boarding if you don't, if you're not proficient in the base skills of like, composition and proportion and anatomy and perspective. Like, I know I'll Keep repeating that 50 times throughout this, but it is so important to know and remember how those building blocks serve you forever. So then he started giving me problems to work on, like a train heist or this and that and blah, blah, blah. And then I would start building my portfolio with it. And during that time I would email studios, try to get tests right. And back then tests were like a lot more prevalent. I don't really believe in testing now because it doesn't. Like if, if, if the supervisor is looking at your work, they'll know if you're ready. And the test is just like free work unless they pay you right. So your portfolio is so important because your portfolio shows everyone your ability to do it and how you make choices, how you act, characters, how you drive a story, all that fun stuff. So worked on that and then I got a job as a motion graphics artist for two years and like really stopped working on my storyboards and stuff. And then that job near the end, I was starting to feel a little stagnant. So I went hard into practicing again, was able to finish my portfolio and then actually quit that job because my wife's friend was working at another place that, that needed an asset creator for some online tech company stuff for stem, and I love that. But then they closed the branch. So I was working out there for six months, right. But in that time I was really going hard on my portfolio and really ramping up to become A better technical artist, right? And then I got super lucky. Two weeks after they laid us off, I got called in for a test at Rough Draft for that show and this was in 2016. And I finished the test in the house and I asked to come in again to finish it up. Like I, I really wanted to like put some more work into it. And they were, they, they were just like hired me then. So hired on the spot. I love it so. Well, not like on the spot, but that week they called me back. I remember because I was in 711 getting an Arizona Green tea. And they called me up and they're like, hey, you got the job. This is your rate. Like holy crap. I almost dropped my tea. I was like, oh, thank you. So, so a good amount of a good pay even before joining the union. No, you have to get paid a standard union rate for the union. So I was doubly lucky that my first job was a union job. Because unions, the way it works is there is no ceiling, but there is a baseline. So you will never make less than a certain amount of money for the contract, but you can always negotiate higher. So that's, that's a, that's really an awesome thing. And one of the best parts of having union contracts because it really helps create a standard of pay. You know, do you have to do a certain amount of hours to join a union? Well, every union has a different contract. Like WGA, SAG, they all have different things. Like I'm in TAG, which is the Animation Guild Local 839, part of District 2 of the I TSC. And our contract is essentially when you get hired by a studio covered in the collective bargaining agreement. So like the overall contract, you are automatically in the union. You, you, you get like a, you have to pay dues and you pay like an initial member, like an entrance fee essentially based on your wage from what job you got. And then after that you start accruing hours. But the best part about it is because of the nature of animation in this gig industry, let's say your job lasts six to eight months. If you banked 400 plus hours. If you bought a bank like, like maybe 850, you basically have insurance for a year if you're unemployed. So that's where, that's where the protection from a union is so valuable in a gig based economy. I'm glad you brought that up. I want to talk about the gig based economy. Most people, when we talk about the entertainment industry need to understand that it is very much a gig Economy. It's not like you're going to do 30 years at Disney and 30 years at Cartoon Network. Your talents are going to take you in many different directions and working with many different studios, different software. So I love that you explained the insurance following. We talk about the fact that while you're currently working on a project and you mentioned like it could be a six month, eight month gig, then you have to start thinking about what comes next in order to have something aligned. So talk me through what comes next after this first union job. Well, I was pretty lucky at Rough Draft. Again, a lot of this stuff is very, very much opportunity meets luck versus relationships. Right? Like for instance, Rough Draft and I had a pretty good relationship when I was working there and they kept hiring me on other shows that were coming down the pipeline. And then eventually I took a job at Nickelodeon and I worked at Nickelodeon on a show that kind of got buried because the, the movie didn't quite do so well. It's called A Wonder park and because that they kind of like put the show in the, the vaults. So I mean Nickelodeon was a fun place to work, but I was offered a directing job through Fox, I mean through Bento Box. Now they're Bento Box Fox. Right. And I left Nickelodeon to go direct. Okay, talk me through directing at this point and what is involved with directing behind animation. So essentially a storyboard artist gets a piece of a script and they draw out that script and boards. I don't have to describe storyboards. You guys all know what that is. So they, they board based on the section of the script. Right. The director will have multiple board artists they work with and the director sees the overall vision of the script and the boards and make sure that everything hooks up, looks the way it needs to works within the confine of the script. The jokes are hitting, the action's hitting, the plots are hitting. This, this makes sense in this act, with this act. So you're basically the glue that keeps the episode together and you redraw what you think needs to be redrawn in order to look as good as you want it to look, etc. Etc. So a director just works with more board artists on their team and a lot of it is just really good time management, communication and organization. Being a great board artist helps a lot when you're a director, but it pales in comparison to the management skills you need to be a director. So director directors are really just really good managers and that's what makes a really good director. So obviously it also pays off that you did storyboarding beforehand to know what it is feels like to be in those individual artists shoes and you know, you're able to direct. I love how you mentioned organization, great communication and you know, just being an organizational leader in, in that aspect from, from there. So you leave Nickelodeon, you go to Bento Box. Bento Box now becomes Bento Box Fox. You work on that as a director. What comes next? So I worked, I worked on a bunch of shows. Like, I've, I've been having a really good experience working at Bento Box and, and they've kept me on for a lot of different projects from, from development to directing to retake directing. And then I recently, like, I, I was hired to do the pilot on, Sorry, Crapopolis. Right. And from Crapopolis, after the season, I was offered a supervising directing job at Netflix. And I, you know, we talked to them. They really understood it was such a big, you know, promotion. So they were like, congrats, we hate to lose you, but like, good luck. Right. So I worked at Netflix for quite some time supervising supervisor, supervising directing on a show that did not come out. It unfortunately got canceled, or we don't really say canceled, more like it stopped production, you know, and because, you know, it can be picked up elsewhere. You never know. Right. What happened with Netflix Animation? What happened with Netflix is what happened with Netflix's animation division? Because I'm not an executive, so I can't. No, no, I can't speak for them. Yeah. And hold all questions to the end. Let's just a quick reminder. So getting a, getting a job offer at Netflix, obviously a huge opportunity. Yeah. Did you, how did you hear about that opportunity? Because I know it's not like you can open up a magazine or, you know, go online in Craigslist, you know, old school style. How do you hear about these opportunities? Well, a lot of, A lot of supervising roles that I've been offered were entirely based on other artists I've worked with. Right. Or producers I've worked with or people in production that I've worked with. Right. So let's say, for instance, my first directing job was I was recommended by a director I had at rough drafts who really like my work. And he was like, hey, I'm looking for a director. Let me know if you know anyone. And I was like, can I throw my name in the hat? He's like, oh, yeah, definitely. And then he, he recommended me and I talked to the producer and the showrunners and they liked me and I was given the opportunity. But he Stuck his neck out for me, you know, he was like, this guy's really good. Trust me, you know, trust him. And it worked out. So when it just. I. I feel like one of my favorite things about this industry and working on shows is you really can learn from everyone. Right. And I've always really enjoyed soaking up knowledge from everyone, and especially my directors and learning new things. Just adding more tools to your toolbox. Toolbox, right. And I think. And I think about this when I'm supervising and directing and whatever, when people start using the tools you give them, it's really exciting. It makes you more excited to give them more challenging stuff or, like, seeing how they can challenge themselves in other areas or this or that. Right. Because nobody's good at everything. But it's really important to give people the resources to improve while you're working with them. And that's kind of the beauty of just working with teams and getting to know everyone, because you'll never know who will offer you a job later because they think of you, because they remember, oh, that's the person who took my advice and made their scene 10 times better. You know, so, like, those kind of relationships are remembered. So it's important to. I'm glad you. I'm glad you brought that up because obviously, you know, you're an easygoing, fun, intelligent, creative soul, and I think it's very important to know. That was really pretty, Brad. Thank you. But I think it's important to know that people will a remember your work. They'll remember how hard you work. But, like, coming into work with a smile and being friendly goes over a lot better than the. The super amazing, like, I'm too good for school. And, you know, you know, that doesn't hold weight. And I love even how your example of working from project to project to project is a clear indication that you're good at your job and they're not looking elsewhere and they're incorporating you into other projects under that company. So I think that just needs to be highlighted. Well, there's also this. This fun thing on top of that, but this is how I feel. But, you know, you're working really closely with your team. Right. And I'll take somebody any day who is good but can be better and is really great to work with than somebody who is really, really good and a pain in the ass to work with. Like, I'll take. I'll take the other person any day over that. Because when you're working with somebody, it has to be a relationship. It has to be Communicative. And if people just want to fight with you all the time, it affects the process. You know, it affects everything. So it's really important to. To me, at least, to have somebody I know I don't have to worry about. No, sure. I think that. I think that really does make sense. And it's. It does make camaraderie when everyone does get along and you have someone where you can give constructive criticism without them coming back and being like, well, my degree is in blah, blah, blah, and I know what I'm doing. Right. Like, you. You're at that point where you started having to take direction, and now you're at that point where you're giving the direction and you want what you want. You have your vision, you know what you want, and you just need to be able to communicate that from. Go ahead. I don't want to know. You're right. But, like, sometimes it's also like, like, everybody has a different approach to directing. I tell my board artists the same thing, get it 80% of the way, and then we can work with the next 20. Right. But. But I really like to. I don't want to take the creative agency away from my board artists. So I do like to give verbal direction in the beginning and just make them aware of these certain aspects and see what they come up with. Some directors like to give thumbs or, like, blockouts, but I really like to see what they make because the best thing that happens is I have the overall idea and they do something I didn't expect, and that's either better than my idea or with that in mind, we can come up with a better idea than that. So that's the kind of beauty of, in my opinion, letting board artists board, letting them do their thing, let them interpret things with, like, whatever specific needs that I'm thinking about throughout the whole episode. Right. And, like, it's worked for me pretty nicely. I think it brings the best out of the board artists because they feel that creative agency, and if there's ever a problem, we talk about it. And when I say problem, I mean if they didn't hit, like, the tone or like the plot beat the way we need or the joke didn't quite hit, it's something we can just talk about, you know, so that's. That's an ideal place to be, in my opinion. And I also like how you mentioned you never know who is going to go to another studio and lend a hand. It could be someone that's working underneath you as a storyboard artist that gets Their break, which then comes back and reaches out to you as well. So on that note, how important has networking been to your success? It depends what kind of networking you mean. Because like for me a lot of networking has been just working on shows. Right. But also like just being involved with my union. It's probably more networking than I've ever done ever, anywhere, to be honest. But prior to working, I'm trying to think of your question as somebody who's not like already in a situation where they know a lot of people. But before that there's a lot of. There were. Actually it's a little bit different now with the pandemic. But post, post pandemic, but there were a lot of like we events or like mixers and stuff or like just local Los Angeles get togethers, like figure drawing or just stuff to do. Right. Like drinking, draws, things like that. So that, that was, that was how I met people prior to working, if that makes sense. Yeah, no, A hundred percent. I mean no job is going to fall in your lap. You got to go out there and meet some people. And not your typical like, here's my business card, networking. But just that I always tell individuals who say, hey, I have a hard time networking. If it's something you're passionate about and you love, just go find like minded individuals and you're going to naturally network. You're just talking about what you love. Yes, there's a good point. You say that because talking is a huge thing. Like when you're networking. I feel like this is just a general human thing. If, if you're trying to learn about something, let the person who knows the thing talk more than you talk, if that makes sense. Because I know a lot of people are so excited to talk about the things they love, but I feel like the number one rule is listen to the person you're talking to if they're an experienced artist because you may learn a lot more. Like they know you're green. If you haven't worked on a show, you don't have to impress them. They, they're not, they're, they're not gonna hire you on the spot. Just, just be yourself, but don't be the person that makes anyone feel uncomfortable. And that means if you have, if you have an opinion about a show and it's a negative one, just keep it to yourself. They may have worked on it. You know, like whatever you feel about the industry or specific shows or whatever is like trending and animation or pop culture, you never know who you're talking to and who worked on what. And it's just like, be the person that people remember because you made them laugh, not the person they remember because you talked about how much you hated a TV show or and a movie. So, yeah, like, think of it like this. If you ever didn't like something, you have the opportunity to make something better, you know, and you don't know what the situations were. So I would just remember that. Because you'd be surprised how many people just start a conversation off with like, oh, did you hear that thing about I hate that. I hate. Let's talk about it. And it's like, you know, I don't know. It's. It's not something that makes somebody feel immediately comfortable. So that's all. So if you're passionate about this stuff, be cool about it. No, I. I think that might be one of the most useful nuggets of information because you're totally right. Listen. If you're talking to someone you respect and someone who's been in this industry and knows what they're doing listing. I mean, we talk about that in our communication, how important it is to listen. Everybody can talk. Everybody's already thinking about what they're going to say next off of what someone's talking about. But you're not listening if you're constantly thinking about what you're going to say next. Right. So listening is extremely valuable. And you're right. Be known for someone who made someone laugh versus coming in there with a big ball of negativity and talking smack. And you're right. You never know who was involved in anything out there. So I love that. Talk me through any challenges or obstacles you face in your industry, like umbrella obstacles or like, individual ones. In the shows that I work on, any. Either. Either example you want to dive into. Okay. I think my favorite obstacle is to talk about communication, because communication is always an obstacle. And even in the classes I teach for, like, advanced storyboarding or people want to be directors, communication is everything. Identifying who you're communicating with, Whether you're a board artist, talking to your director, whether you're a director, talking to storyboard artists, whether you're a supervisor, it doesn't matter. Everyone has a very specific type of communication method. Sometimes you can tell somebody a billion times that the box is red, and they won't remember or understand until you show them a box and color it red. Right. So there's just a lot of different kinds of communication and just being able to talk with people that you're working with on what their Communication methods are or how you best understand information is pretty much the biggest obstacle anyone faces. Making sure that your patience, making sure that you understand that you're not perfect and no one's perfect. And just giving people the space they need to figure out sometimes how they communicate. A lot of people don't think about this stuff. So, like, if I go to a board artist and I was like, hey, you know, I gave you some notes, but you didn't seem to follow them, let's talk about why. Right? Not going to get mad at them for making a mistake, but you have to be able to talk to them about how to resolve it. Or if you. If your director gives you notes and you aren't hitting them the way they're asking you to, that warrants a discussion in how they can better communicate to you. I've had artists who are like, I need you to give me deadlines. It helps me work where some people, I'm just like, get it done by in two weeks and they're fine. Right. So everyone has this method of communication. It's kind of like the love language test. Like, my wife and I love that one because it's. It's really funny how spot on that stuff is like, like, if somebody responds best to, like, words of affirmation, give them a compliment when they do a good job because, like, you're proud of them, they did a good job. And you, you. It may be against your nature to be like, hey, I saw your stuff and I loved it. Because maybe you're more of an introvert, but you kind of got to make that effort, you know, kind of make the effort to say, hey, you did a good job. That's their communication skills. That's their love language. It makes them feel good. Right. And it's not something you have to pretend to do if you liked it. Right. So just like, understanding how people function and communicate usually is always the biggest obstacle. You get a new team, you get a new member, you join a new team, and that's just the. The best way to figure things out, in my opinion. And also one of the most universal challenges, just communicating with others. So, no, I think that's a very good example. And then obviously, you know, you mentioned all the different dynamics, but then when you're at your level, then have to communicate with the actual studio on what they want and dictating that to you as well, Correct? Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, it's funny because studio stuff, studio wise, like, your team is your team. If you're hired on a Show you're not really communicating directly with the studio that much. And by studio is the entity that hired all of you to work on this show. Right? So you're most of the people you talk to are just your supervisors, etc. So. Okay, talk me through. Is there a mantra that keeps you focused, something that gets you positive or something that you find yourself saying daily? No, I don't have any mantras except it, let's go. But I do like that's. That, that one works. I do like listening to the Concerning Hobbit song on repeat. Usually gets me in the zone. Okay, fair enough. Or the Gurren Lagann soundtrack. Okay. Biggest piece of advice you'd give to a younger Jake. Done. I can't go. I can't go back in time. Okay, so you just. Everything is kind of built upon to where you are right now. I think one of the things that I really love from your career roadmap is the fact that you mentioned after you graduated college, that's when you did all the studying. That's when you took the time into diving into YouTube and putting in, you know, the hours of work to perfect your craft. It talks about that you got to do about 10,000 hours to master someone to, to master a skill. Are you at that point yet? I don't know. It's weird to think about what mastering means because no matter how good you ever get, you'll always never be good enough to yourself. In a weird way. There's always something to get better at. There's always another style you admire. The 10,000 thing is interesting because, you know, I do talk to a lot of friends about this and I do think there's a good, there's a effect like efficient way to study. There's a non efficient way to study. But regardless of which way you do it, there's always like a moment where things click and that's different for everyone. The number one thing everyone thinks they know that they don't is perspective. It's the number one thing that no matter how good you are, you sometimes just do it wrong. And I think. And then like it's interesting. I don't know you, you like, you like stepped into an existential puddle in my mind because like you're not going to learn the technical skills to be like an industry artist in school. Most of those schools don't teach what you need. They teach everyone to be like an independent like animator or storyteller. And any like anyone with a good idea can be a really good independent storyteller. Regardless of ability. Like, I think storytelling is so human and raw and natural. But, like, when you're working in animation, you have to have a certain standard because you need to be able to ship these shows. You need to be able to, like, do at a certain quality level. So once I understood that, that's why I practice so hard. So, like, did I hit my 10,000 hours? Am I a master? I don't know. I really don't. But, like, for what I want to create, I have the ability to create everything I want right now. And that took me years to get to. And it's not just like an ability thing, but it's the comfort in which you allow yourself to tell stories as well. Because you know, you can spend five minutes coming up with the funniest fart joke in the world, but you have to spend. You still have to spend a thousand hours animating it and writing it and designing it, right? So it's like, there's a commitment to your own work and there's a commitment to what the industry standard for works are. And I also ramble a lot, so stop me at any time. No, but you're. What you're saying, like, does make total sense to me. You can create whatever you need at this moment, but you're also very humble to be around other artists, talented individuals and learn. You know, you mentioned, like, maybe they do a different perspective, and it wasn't exactly what you were thinking, but you are humble enough to go, like, but maybe that's better than what I thought, and work with it, Right? So I think that's important. I have one last question, and then I'm going to save the last 10 minutes just for. If anyone on the call has a question. What's the advice you would give to someone who wants to work in your industry in animation, directing, storyboarding? Do you. Is there a certain school that you say, hey, go this route, experience. Just. What. What would you suggest to a young individual who wants to get their foot in the door? I think portfolio is everything. And the way you get those skills is no school will ever teach it entirely in that class. And then you will walk out of there going, cool, I'm a pro. There's a huge cycle of destruction that people go down, which is they take a class, they learn it, they forget it, they take another class, they learn it, they forget it, another class. And that puts you in a lot of debt and you learn nothing, right? You take one class, one class on storyboarding. I guarantee you, unless the teacher doesn't know Storyboarding and just completely pretends to make it all up. Every storyboarding class will basically teach you the same thing, right? There are teachers who teach it better for how you think than for how others think, because everybody's brain chemistry is different. So, like, maybe there's a teacher who's more cerebral about their teaching and that affects you better where another one's a little more visual and that helps you better, right? So I took one class on storyboarding after school. It was at a place called Concept Design Academy by the. A teacher. His name is Jay Oliva, and that's the only storyboard class I've ever taken. She taught me all the basics that I needed to know, and then I had to practice the rest of it with the mentorship of Matt from back in the beginning of the story, right? So you'll never learn how to board or be a good artist if you just do it from class work. You'll not, you'll never be good. You can learn all the things, but you're, you're dealing with muscle memory, you're dealing with how your body uses a pen, how to become a cyborg, right? Like, like you're just not going to learn those skills without practicing them. And the, the, the, the repetition. And that's what I was talking about briefly, about 10,000 hours or more efficiently, right? Like, it's, it's how you practice, how much you practice, how you're into, how you intuitively connect with the thing you're practicing, right? So I recommend taking one class in storyboarding and then practice storyboarding all the time. All the time. And every time you finish a story, like a storyboard, make a new one, keep making new ones, and pick your three favorite. That's your portfolio, right? Every time you make one that's better than the three, take the worst one in your mind out, put the new one in, right? But you're, you'll never be good. Just like jumping from classes to classes. You have to practice it. You have to want to practice it. And there's this, like. And this will be the last thing I say on it because I mentor a lot, right? I have a server dedicated to storyboarding where I have a lot, like 4,000 plus students and maybe two to five do the prompts or work on the story words, right? And you have to ask yourself at the end of the day, are you a fan of art or a fan of storytelling or a fan of animation, or do you have the drive and want to create it? Because a lot of people fight themselves when They're a fan and they think they want to create it, but they really just want to enjoy it. And it shouldn't be this super agonizing struggle all the time to practice figure drawing or practice storyboarding. There needs to be some spark of want behind it. And I would say in a lot of cases, need. Right. So there's a beauty in storytelling that's personal and special to everyone who tells stories. But if you never plan on making anything with those stories and with that art, then you might just be a fan of making like, of watching stuff. Right. But just because you don't want to draw doesn't mean you can't write it, doesn't mean you can't design it. There's a lot of different roles, but, like, storyboarding is like this. This thing that a lot of people think they want to do. And when I talk to them, they're like, they're like talking about all these things to me, and I'm like, you want to be a designer, you want to design characters. You don't want to be a storyboard artist or you want to be a writer, you don't want to storyboard. You know, so it's something that's really important to remind yourself that it is one of the most labor intensive things and you have to really want to do it if you're going to practice it and grow in it and get better at it. And I would recommend people just finding really cool passages in books that you like or fables or stories and start boarding them in your own way. That's a great way to practice. You got to be boarding. I love that idea. Amazing. I want to thank you for joining us tonight. Definitely being very descriptive in exactly what the role looks like as a director storyboard artist. We are excited to follow your career. I will pass along information so individuals on this call can maybe sign up for the mentorship that you were talking about with storyboarding. But I just want to wish you continued success in good health and looking forward to following your career. Yeah. Thank you, Bret. It was a pleasure talking to everybody.[Host] - As we conclude another enriching episode, we hope you've found inspiration in the stories shared today. Let's take a moment to honor Yes I Can's role in bringing Breaking The Biz to life. Yes I Can's commitment to empowering young people with disabilities through education, advocacy, and mentorship shines brightly, paving paths of opportunity and dialogue. This podcast celebrates the organization's dedication to nurturing talent and facilitating impactful discussions. Breaking The Biz is more than a podcast. It's a part of Yes I Can's broader mission to amplify voices, dismantle barriers, and craft a world that's more inclusive and accessible for everyone. Each episode is a chapter in our shared narrative of progress, education, and empowerment, driven by the spirit of Yes I Can. Thank you for spending your time with us on Breaking The Biz. Continue to challenge the status quo and share stories that resonate until our paths cross again. Let's keep transforming aspirations into achievements and infuse every endeavor with optimism. Here's to advancing the landscape of the entertainment industry one episode at a time. I'm your host, William Felber. See you next time.